Ep 6: w/ Lisien Loan | Talking wildlife ethics and permits in South Australia

On this episode we'll be chatting with the leader of conservation and wildlife at the Department for Environment and Water in SA Lisien Loan on wildlife ethics and permits. Plus, we'll dive into her career from studying geography to becoming the Director of navigating the complexities wildlife management in South Australia. What's the future of wildlife conservation in SA? Tune in for the answer. 

Welcome to another episode of the Green Adelaide Podcast. We are metro SA’s first environmental industry podcast.

We’re your insider scoop on all things cool, green, and wild in metropolitan South Australia.

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I’m your host Melissa Martin and I’m the Communications Manager at Green Adelaide who loves red-tailed black cockatoos.

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Transcript

Lisien Loan:

There's plenty of volunteering opportunities. That's often a really great way to start if you're looking for a career in the environment industry. It also gives you a chance to check it out and make sure you like it as well. I think that's a really good way and it helps you build some connections and networks as well. I think that's a really great way to start.

Melissa Martin:

Welcome to another episode of the Green Adelaide Podcast. I am your host, Melissa Martin, and I'm the communications manager at Green Adelaide who loves red-tailed black cockatiels. We are Metro SA's first and only environmental industry podcast. We're you're inside a scoop on all things cool, green, and wild in Metropolitan South Australia.

Before we jump in, remember, subscribe to our podcast for new episode alerts. This episode we'll be talking about wildlife management in Metropolitan South Australia. We'll be diving deep into the complexity of wildlife management from ethics to permits with the director of Conservation and Wildlife at the Department for Environment and Water, Lisien Loan. Welcome, Lisien.

Lisien Loan:

Thank you. Good to be here.

Melissa Martin:

First off, like all our episodes, Lisien, let's learn a little bit about you and your career to this day today. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey of how you became the director of Conservation and Wildlife?

Lisien Loan:

Sure. Well, I started off being one of those kids at school that didn't have a clear plan. I wasn't sure what I wanted to be when I grew up, but I really liked geography. I lived in the country, so surrounded by plants and animals and farms and things. And so I always had a bit of an interest in the environment around me. Came to university and kept going with geography, which is a bit of a dying subject these days, but I love that, and got more and more into environmental type geography and did my honors looking at wetlands in the southeast. That got me started.

Then I got a graduate position in the Department for Environment as it was at the time, and started off working in park planning, which was great. I spent a bit of time working in the water resources area and then came back into parks for a bit, spent some time doing environmental work with Mines and Energy department. That was a fantastic opportunity to get right out into some remote areas of South Australia, out in the far west in Yellabinna Regional Reserve and Nullarbor and up in the Cooper Basin in the north.

So that was really great. And then came back into the department into some more policy type areas, did environmental policy type work for a while, and then went out into the region into the Adelaide and Mount Lofty Ranges region and really enjoyed that operational aspect of the work that we do out on parks and out working with private landholders on conservation activities and then into the role I'm currently in as Director Conservation and Wildlife.

Melissa Martin:

So you went around the state a bit and you started off in geography and you said you went into more environmental geography. What does that mean?

Lisien Loan:

That means more physical geography, so landforms, vegetation, why things grow, where they do, how does water move across the landscape, that sort of thing. Whereas social geography is more about demographics of how people live and populations and that sort of thing.

Melissa Martin:

And so you've ended up being the Director of Conservation and Wildlife. Does that role logically link up to what you were doing before or is it a little bit different?

Lisien Loan:

I think it does link up in some ways and is a little bit different in others. So in this role we do, I look after a lot of the permitting and general programming and policy for conservation, threatened species, wildlife management. So having that broad experience both operationally and in a policy role really helps with that. Also look after our compliance team, which does compliance work for all of the different legislation that we look after in the department. So having a good breadth of knowledge and understanding really helps with that as well.

Melissa Martin:

And I found, because obviously I work in media and communications working with you, a very seasoned media talent for us and very calm when you need to do it. So what have you found has helped you through your career to be able to be a spokesperson on environmental topics in the traditional media?

Lisien Loan:

Well, public speaking and speaking with media has been something I've had to really work on over my career. It hasn't been a natural thing for me. I think the key thing is to be prepared. So knowing your topic, knowing your subject, making sure that you're across all the information that you need to be. And then really as you said, staying calm. I'm a fairly calm person anyway, so that's not too bad. And obviously listening to the questions and trying to answer those.

Melissa Martin:

That can be a bit of an emotional topic. How have you found community and media of trying to just toe the line with being the authority on that topic and just [inaudible 00:05:36], but being empathetic at the same time because it is such a sensitive topic?

Lisien Loan:

It can be a really sensitive topic and there's lots of passion and sometimes lots of emotion involved around wildlife and wildlife issues in particular, particularly where there's things where we might not know what's going on. For example, the dolphins that were dying in the Adelaide dolphin sanctuary. I think it's important to stick to the facts. Working in a government setting or a regulatory setting, need to be cognizant of the facts. Try and really detach your own emotion from the situation where you can, and being empathetic and also understanding that there's a variety of views in the community about wildlife, what should be done to manage them.

Melissa Martin:

And what have you learned the most from being in the environmental industry that you think new people to the industry should know?

Lisien Loan:

Gosh, I think just understanding how complex it is, that it is difficult to come up with a quick win or an easy solution. It's more about having a bit of a long-term view and gradually working your way towards it, I think. So having a bit of that strategic mindset and then gradually moving towards it. And particularly when you think about some of our most successful conservation programs and things, they're 20 years in the making, but you've got to start somewhere and keep moving towards that bigger goal. I think the other thing is, even though some of the problems seem overwhelming and are quite complex, it's leaning into them and trying to understand it. Being brave to ask the questions and trying to understand things in more detail is important as well.

Melissa Martin:

I've heard a few commentary about from other guests as well is around, the way of the environmental industry future is around citizen science and having more of the community be involved with the on-the-ground work. And obviously with wildlife conservation, there's a lot of rescue associations that are doing the on-the-ground work. Do you feel the same that it is going to go in that direction that the community is going to pay a bigger role in conserving the wildlife into the future?

Lisien Loan:

I think so. I think it's something that the whole community needs to be a part of if it's going to work, and particularly in metropolitan Adelaide, if we're going to have a wild city and wildlife living with us, everybody has a part to play with what they put in their gardens, how they treat the environment, how they manage their own lifestyle. So that's all important. And certainly the wildlife care sector does a wonderful job on behalf of the community in terms of rescuing and rehabilitating our wildlife. We've looked at this and estimated it's saving the community about $8 million a year. And that's probably an underestimate really, but a lot of these people put in a lot of time and energy to do that, which is fantastic.

Melissa Martin:

They really do. I found a sick bat in my backyard and I called Bat Rescue, and so quickly came to my house, picked up the bat, actually it got better. So they looked after it for like three months and then re-released it when it was healthy again. It was a micro bat and it was amazing, and they kept giving me updates. They were so good. And there's so many people like that that, that do it.

Lisien Loan:

There are, and they're all volunteers pretty much, and they know a lot about these animals as well. So yeah, it's fantastic.

Melissa Martin:

It really is. How would you define success in the environmental industry? How do you define that for yourself?

Lisien Loan:

Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because overwhelmingly there is a lot of doom and gloom. We've got climate change. A lot of our threatened species are getting more threatened, not less threatened, but I think it's trying to have that long-term view and thinking about some of those successes and continuing to work with people and partners to try and keep turning that around species by species or little patch by little patch to try and make things better.

Melissa Martin:

So look for the little wins.

Lisien Loan:

Little wins, for sure.

Melissa Martin:

I'll go to the next section, which is our rapid fire round. And so what that means is that I'm going to ask you 10 random questions that are outside the environmental industry just to take us a little bit of a safe space at the moment. And it's a regular thing we do on the podcast. The questions will pretty much be this or that, or your favorite thing as the answer. And just say the first thing that comes to your mind. Here we go. So are you an introvert or an extrovert?

Lisien Loan:

I'm probably right on the borderline, I think. Not quite one or the other.

Melissa Martin:

If you could have one superpower, what would it be?

Lisien Loan:

Ooh, I reckon super strength.

Melissa Martin:

What would you do if you won the lottery?

Lisien Loan:

Oh, so many things.

Melissa Martin:

A hundred mil.

Lisien Loan:

A hundred million. Well, I definitely want to keep some for myself for a holiday, but it would be great to be able to donate some of that money to conservation causes or improving outcomes for people somewhere in the health system, something like that. I think a bit of a combo.

Melissa Martin:

What's your favorite color?

Lisien Loan:

Blue.

Melissa Martin:

How old were you when you got your first job?

Lisien Loan:

Probably about 16 I think.

Melissa Martin:

What did you do when you were 16?

Lisien Loan:

Just waiting tables at the pub.

Melissa Martin:

Nice. Do you think dreams hold meaning?

Lisien Loan:

I do.

Melissa Martin:

What movie do you enjoy quoting the most?

Lisien Loan:

I'm not sure. I'm a big movie quoter, but I do love the Star Wars series, so I might've been known to quote Yoda occasionally.

Melissa Martin:

Would you travel to space?

Lisien Loan:

No.

Melissa Martin:

Is there such a thing as a perfect life?

Lisien Loan:

No, I don't think there's a perfect life.

Melissa Martin:

What car would you drive if you could afford anything?

Lisien Loan:

I'd love to have a full electric car. That would be cool.

Melissa Martin:

And that brings us to end of the rapid fire round, thank you. So now we'll move on to the complexity of wildlife management a bit more, and it's managing the ethics around wildlife management and it's a really complex topic and what we should protect is a big question, and that's dependent on where you live and the landscape and so many different cultural factors as well. And also the resources that are available to look after the wildlife as well. So to start off, would you have to talk us a little bit through your insight into how and why wildlife management is so complex to manage, particularly in South Australia?

Lisien Loan:

I think there's a few things that come into the complexity. One is that largely in South Australia, like many areas of Australia, wildlife actually operates in a bit of a boom bust cycle. So when there's a lot of rainfall and food around, the populations increase a lot. Then when we go into drought periods, populations shrink back, and that relates to our wetlands and river systems and just general grass availability and things like that. So we're not managing a static population. The other thing is, of course, that wild animals move around and want to use the whole landscape, and if habitat is destroyed in one area, they might shift to another area.

With things like climate variability and climate change, they'll move around to environments that suit them, and that isn't always popular with humans. So humans get used to the animals in their area. They're not really expecting some of the changes that are happening, such as we've got a large increase in Ibis moving into the city. We have things like the Grey-headed flying foxes that have moved to South Australia because their habitat in the eastern states isn't as great anymore for them, so they've wanted to move here. So some of those things create challenges for people and their businesses and industries when all of a sudden there's animals moving in that they're not necessarily having seen before.

So some of those human-wildlife interactions can be challenging to deal with. Other things of course, is that animals can move around a bit more easily than say things like plants. So if the animals change and the plants, the flowers can't be fertilized like they might've been before, then all of a sudden they're not setting as much seed and you get some of these cycles happening. So some of that complexity can be challenging to manage, and plants can move only so far, so they're much slower to shift around the landscape than animals.

So there's some of the challenges. Also, like you said, all the species are obviously interacting in the ecosystem as well. So sometimes things like kangaroos are wonderful because they're a wonderful native species, but you get too many, they tend to eat a lot of the habitat that's important for other animals. So managing the native animals in a system that's heavily modified and that humans have had a big impact on gets more and more challenging over time.

Melissa Martin:

I think of it as like a butterfly effect. You change one thing, you don't know how it's going to impact something else on the other side of the ecosystem. And it's tricky and it's hard to convey that to society as well. Maybe there's one certain species that's lost and everyone's like, "Well, I didn't see that anyway. I didn't even know it existed, so don't care."

But then it has a big impact over the other side of [inaudible 00:16:12] surviving. Can you think of an example of maybe something that's happened like that in South Australia, where a species maybe has really dropped in numbers and maybe it's from the bush fires, and how it's impacted another species on the other side of the spectrum?

Lisien Loan:

One of the reasons why they've put the brush-tailed bettong back onto the Yorke Peninsula is because their soil engineers. So when they've dropped out of the landscape, you lose the animals that are digging in the soil and when they dig in the soil that then allows water to infiltrate, you get better seed set, you get more plants and that benefits other animals. So I know that for putting some of these animals back, they're trying to recreate some of those things that have been lost.

I think the other thing is some of our insects, so a lot of insects are a bit out of sight, out of mind, but as they get impacted, they do play a really crucial role in terms of being a food source for lots of animals and also for pollination for lots of plants. And so probably the thing that worries me most is what's happening to some of our insect populations. There's a lot we don't know about what they do and what they are even and where they're found and how those interactions occur.

But they're some of the base, if you like, of our ecosystem. And then there's other things like the southern right whales which come here and have calves every year. And this year we've seen almost none. And the thinking is that back where they feed in the antarctic, there's not enough krill because of the temperature of the ocean warming. And so the time period between having calves is getting longer and longer over time.

Melissa Martin:

Oh wow.

Lisien Loan:

So that's at a big global scale, but some of those interactions are challenges that we need to think about in conservation.

Melissa Martin:

And one of the other things is around, some of our listeners might say that helping threaten native species might feel a little bit doom and gloom. And so when you're seeing articles that say Australia's the highest animal extinction rates in the world, is it actually... So you mentioned a little bit about it before, but is it doom and gloom for our species? Is it just inevitable that it's got to happen, or what do you think?

Lisien Loan:

Well, I've got a foot in both camps. I think sometimes you do feel a bit like it's overwhelming and what can you do about some of these bigger picture things? But on the other hand, there's been lots of successful programs, particularly around things like some of our local threatened orchids and the Seed Centre at the Botanic Gardens has managed to propagate a lot of those and then we can get them back out. So where there might be just one tiny population left on somewhere like a golf course, they've then managed to propagate those and be able to spread them.

So we're reducing the risk of a population going in one spot. So some of those sorts of things have been quite successful. And there are other programs, things like Bounce back in the Flinders Ranges where they've spent many, many years reducing the goats and feral predators, enabling the yellow-footed rock wallaby to come back really successfully. So once upon a time you'd be hard-pressed to see a yellow-footed rock wallaby, and now you see them all the time. So I think there's some wonderful examples of where that can work.

Melissa Martin:

And how do you think it could work in a metropolitan environment? Of course it's harder because you're managing infrastructure, humans more so than when you're in regional areas. How do you think the future is as urbanization happens more and more and more to look after these species in more human dense populations?

Lisien Loan:

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I know here in the Waymouth Street office, we often look out the window and watch the peregrine falcons, which use the windows of the high-rise buildings like they would a cliff. So there's plenty of animals that can adapt to the human environment. Not all of them of course, but a lot of them. And if we provide the right environment for them, they can still thrive even though they're living in and amongst humans.

And I think there's particularly, I was talking about insects before, there's plenty of opportunities for some of those smaller animals for sure. If people are managing their gardens and things like the public space, councils do a lot of work in trying to make them more biodiverse, which supports some of these species to live in and amongst us, which is a wonderful opportunity for us.

Melissa Martin:

So you've got all these different species living within the city area that are native species, and there is perils as well, but native species. And how do you think the populations would go with managing, because some species are better in this environment, like minor birds, they are thriving.

Lisien Loan:

Noisy minors.

Melissa Martin:

Thriving and they're a native species, but they can be quite aggressive and maybe scare around maybe more of the shyer native species. How do you go about managing that in a city environment because they're thriving here and other obviously species are not so much?

Lisien Loan:

Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? I know in my own backyard we've had a healthy population of noisy minors and no other honeyeaters. But if you can plant habitat that suits the others and reduces the attractiveness for the noisy minors, you can gradually shift that. So planting lots of prickly bushes and dense shrubbery has enabled New Holland honeyeaters to come into the backyard and you see less of the noisy minors. So I think trying to create an environment that suits the species and that you want to see is a good way to go about it.

Melissa Martin:

What are the top native species in South Australia that have the most conservation attention at the moment, and why is that?

Lisien Loan:

So a lot of the investment into threatened species comes from the Australian government and they have a priority list of 110 species that they provide funding on. So they're some of the ones that are attracting some funding at the moment, and that includes a range of plant and mammal and birds species. So things like the orange-bellied parrot, which is in the southeast is a very small population. It goes to Tasmania each year to breed and then flies back. And so there's been a lot of investment in that species to try and get it to recover, and it's gradually getting there.

Other things that are on the list are things like the bent-wing bat, which you find in the Naracoorte Caves down in the southeast. It's quite a lot of orchids. I mentioned the Seed Centre, they do a lot of great work trying to propagate and look after some of the rare orchid species in the state. The list includes things like the KI assassin spider, which was heavily impacted by the bush fires on KI. So there's a bit of work there. And it also includes things like the Australian sea lion, which has got a bit of focus in South Australia.

The majority of the population lives in South Australia, so we've always had a bit of a focus on that species and trying to help it recover as well. So they're some of the species. There's also species that might not be threatened, but the community have a great deal of attachment to, so things like dolphins and things like that too. So there's always a bit of focus on those. Things like the southern right whale that we talked about before that come to our waters quite often, they're quite iconic as well. So they're some of the species that get some of that funding and attention from people.

Melissa Martin:

And with the list of threatened species that I've highlighted, is that based on numbers or is that based on something else?

Lisien Loan:

So the Australian government went through a process of trying to look at a range of factors when they were selecting that list, which was quite an interesting process. So it's a little bit about how threatened it is, but also a little bit about how practical it is to maybe do something about it as well. And then also trying to pick up some of the cultural values around those species and a whole range of things as they came up with the list. In South Australia we have a threatened species list as well that sits under our National Parks and Wildlife Act, and that's largely based on threat of extinction basically. So how many are left, where they are, what threats they might be under.

Melissa Martin:

Is that list similar to the federal government one or it is more locally relevant?

Lisien Loan:

It's more locally relevant, but there is work going on across Australia to try and harmonize all the threatened species listings so that they're done at a population scale, if you like. So rather than where a species might be completely abundant in Western Australia and just creeps into South Australia, so we go, "Oh, there's only a tiny amount in South Australia." Well actually the species is okay at a national level. So trying to get a bit more balance around that because of course animals don't know where the borders are.

Melissa Martin:

With our people population growing and the more demands it puts on the environment like habitat loss, increasing heat pollution, and just pressure on our resources, how do you see the future of wildlife management? We talked a little bit about this before, but what do you see as the future of it? And it just comes more and more pressure to do something because of climate change and all that stuff. So what do you see as the future of wildlife management for South Australia?

Lisien Loan:

I think probably a little bit more of the same, but I think if we look at Adelaide itself, we do have quite a lot of native vegetation in our city when you look out and see all the trees. And so I think we've got lots of opportunities. I think too that there is an interest and it's been great what Green Adelaide's been trying to do to make the city a more wild place, if you like.

To talk about how we live with nature and have the opportunities to have wildlife living in and amongst us and what does that mean for us and how does that look? And I think people do value, particularly birds in the backyard and things that they see. So I think people do care. And so I think that's important going forward, that will help. Community care helps to be able to get the investment that we need to try and care for our environment into the future.

Melissa Martin:

And some of our listeners might not know that Adelaide or Eastern Adelaide into the hills is a biodiversity hotspot, which I think it means that all the plant life that we have there is of significant value and will have a butterfly effect off so many other things as well. How do you think... Because one of a few places in the world, so there's not a lot of them is my understanding, do you think that impacts how we wildlife manage because we know that this is such a biodiverse area that could be even better? How do you think that affects management? Because we know that is a specific hotspot for biodiversity.

Lisien Loan:

So you're right, the Adelaide Hills and Kangaroo Island together form the only biodiversity hotspot we've got in South Australia. And so that really is because of the amount of diversity of wildlife that we have, plant life and animals and things. So it is really important that we try and protect that and buffer it. So trying to increase the habitat size because that's a critical factor in plants and animals being able to continue to evolve and be more resilient for things like climate change.

I think too, having the elevation of the hills helps as well, particularly with climate change. It gives animals a chance to move up the slope. So yeah, it is important that we try and maintain that diversity as much as we can for the resilience of that whole ecosystem and ultimately for the resilience of us.

Melissa Martin:

Now we'll move on to the topic of wildlife permits and rules in South Australia. So there is a collection of different permits in South Australia needed to rescue, keep, collect, interact, hunt, farm, and sell native animals and some plants too. But before we get into natives, let's talk about exotic animals, just because Tiger King for some reason was on my mind. The most exotic animal I've seen in Adelaide is a macaw, which maybe I just live in a small world. Can people legally own exotic animals like tigers and monkeys in Australia or South Australia?

Lisien Loan:

[inaudible 00:30:21] not, so generally that's reserved for things like zoos, and that's because under the Landscapes Act you're required to have a whole range of measures in place so that these sorts of animals don't escape and get into the wild. So some of those are quite restrictive. In terms of what can come into the country, under the Commonwealth's Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act, you do need to get approvals to bring in exotic animals. So there's quite a bit of a process to even get some of these animals in because as we know, some of our worst pests are things that have been brought in either for pets or for agriculture or other things.

Melissa Martin:

So not as loosey-goosey with those laws.

Lisien Loan:

No.

Melissa Martin:

Cool. So there are around 100 native animals that you don't need a permit for to have as a pet in South Australia, like the bearded dragon, hopping mouse, cockatiel, and you need a permit for kangaroo if you were going to have them as a pet or you rescue them. For kangaroos, wombats, or emus. Why are permits required in South Australia for these native animals?

Lisien Loan:

So for some of these native animals, the permits required because the animals have quite complex care requirements, so you need to know what you're doing before you can look after them. Otherwise, you could be causing impacts to the animals themselves. Other reasons are around whether they're rare or threatened. And so there's a bit of concern about that. And if we think that there's a risk to them in the wild, which relates to the rarity as well.

Melissa Martin:

And so what process is it to get a permit to... I'm not sure, is it a pet animal or you're rescuing animal or rehabilitating it? Are people really getting permits to have kangaroos as pets?

Lisien Loan:

Mostly that's more for because they rescue them. So at the moment, if you've rescued a kangaroo and held it for a while, they can't be released for a number of reasons. So they generally then become people's pets. We're currently looking at that policy at the moment, but there's a range of different permits. So keeping them as pets or keeping them to sell or keeping them to display. There's a whole range of permits that you can look at on our website and depending on the complexity of the animal. So we have what's called a basic permit.

So if it's an animal that's easy to look after, then it's a fairly straightforward process. If it's a complex animal or something like a venomous snake, then there's a few more hoops to jump through to check that you are capable of looking after that animal, that it's not going to cause a danger to yourself or others. And then it's a few things like you might require someone to write you a reference, for example, to say that they're an experienced keeper of that animal and that they know you've got the skills and capabilities and housing for the animal that's appropriate.

Melissa Martin:

And if someone wanted to get into wildlife rescue, obviously they would need a permit to do that.

Lisien Loan:

Yes.

Melissa Martin:

What's the process to do that? If you wanted to start rescuing animals, and you have the space and capacity to do that, what would be your journey to do that potentially?

Lisien Loan:

Well, I think it's always good to connect in with some of the organizations that currently do it so that you can find out more about it and learn how to do it and what you might need and get some of that support. And then it's a matter of filling in a permit. We would want to check that you had the appropriate experience and also the appropriate facilities for housing and looking after animals.

Melissa Martin:

And is there ratings of complexity of animal? Like you mentioned, obviously venomous snake has a different requirement. The way that you have to show that you can care for this animal might be more intense for a certain species compared to maybe a kangaroo that might be a bit more straightforward.

Lisien Loan:

Yeah, that's right. And particularly things like koalas require a lot of eucalyptus leaves of particular types. So you'd need to have the capacity to access that. You'd need to know what leaf type they eat, all of those sorts of things. They need to have an area to climb. So some of these animals are, you can't just run down the shop and grab a tin of pet food.

Melissa Martin:

And yeah, that's a good point. There could be quite expensive, compared to a dog and a cat to maintain going forward.

Lisien Loan:

Yep.

Melissa Martin:

Do you think there'll ever be a time in our state where instead of a pet cat or dog, people will be having pet quolls or possums?

Lisien Loan:

Imagine a pet possum. Most people try and get them out of their house and not bring them in. Look, for some animals that might be appropriate, but for a lot of wild animals, it's probably not the best outcome for the human or the animal to have them as a pet. It's something that you can admire the possum in your tree living with you, not necessarily as a pet in your house, I think. But sure, there's a lot of native birds and a lot of reptiles and things like that that make great pets.

Melissa Martin:

And I think as with any pet, not necessarily just native animals, I have a cockatiel and I purchased the cockatiel without knowing they live 20 years and how much attention a cockatiel needs. So I think maybe people think birds are just pretty and nice, but if you get a sulphur-crested, it's 100 years commitment of a demanding bird, and maybe people aren't thinking about that because a dog and a cat is much simpler to look after.

Lisien Loan:

For sure. And a lot of those birds are very intelligent as well. So giving them enough activities and things to keep their minds active as well as just feeding them is important.

Melissa Martin:

So that brings us to an end. Thank you. But before we wrap up, I'm just wondering if you could share some key takeaways from your career? And particularly for our listeners that are new to the industry or want to get into the industry, what is one thing or two things that you would want them to know?

Lisien Loan:

I think taking the chance to do some volunteering work. We have a volunteer ranger program. There's opportunities for interns and we have friends of parks, so there's plenty of volunteering opportunities. So that's often a really great way to start if you're looking for a career in the environment industry. And it also gives you a chance to check it out and make sure you like it as well. So I think that's a really good way, and it helps you build some connections and networks as well. So I think that's a really great way to start. I think the other thing that I mentioned before is while it might be complicated and complex, ask lots of questions and try and find out a bit more about how that all works and how it comes together.

Melissa Martin:

A lot of topics I'm asking, what does that mean? What does that term mean? How do I talk about that in English? So it is an important thing to remind people to dive in and ask all these questions, because the terminology that's maybe used can be a blocker to really understanding the complexity of things and getting involved with it.

Lisien Loan:

Yeah, for sure. And certainly working in government sometimes we tend to talk a language that is a bit different from everybody else. So yeah, don't be afraid to ask us, "What does that actually mean?"

Melissa Martin:

Cool. Thank you so much, Lisien, for your time.

Lisien Loan:

No worries.

Melissa Martin:

That brings us to an end of this episode of the Green Adelaide podcast. Thank you to our special guest, Lisien Loan, who is from the department from environment and water, and is the leader of conservation and wildlife. There. We've learned a lot about wildlife management and how complex it is and all the permits and things you need to think about to look after our wildlife in South Australia. This podcast is your insider scoop on all things cool, green, and wild in Metropolitan South Australia. I am your host Melissa Martin. And remember, subscribe to our podcast for new episode alerts. I'll catch you for our next episode late next month. Bye.