Ep 4: w/ Dr Karl Hillyard | Talking living with wildlife in metropolitan South Australia

On this episode we’ll be talking the in-and-outs of living with wildlife and managing human-wildlife conflicts in metropolitan South Australia, with Principal Ecologist at SA's Department for Environment and Water Dr Karl Hillyard.  

Welcome to another episode of the Green Adelaide Podcast. We are metro SA’s first environmental industry podcast.

We’re your insider scoop on all things cool, green, and wild in metropolitan South Australia.

This podcast is for those who want or have a career in SA’s environmental industry. 

We feature the experts, including the leaders and ecologists to the planners and marketers to chat the people, projects, and news of SA that you, our enviro-listeners, must know about.

I’m your host Melissa Martin and I’m the Communications Manager at Green Adelaide who loves red-tailed black cockatoos.

Learn about Adelaide's environment: greenadelaide.sa.gov.au

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Transcript

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Yeah, that's where there's a great opportunities for people with psychology degrees, marketing, sociology, to come in and help working on those wildlife management issues, because people coming through an ecology science, science field has pretty good ideas around what we do about the animals. But the other part of that story is how we help the people side of those stories, whether that's education, whether that's trying to nudge those values and belief systems.

Melissa Martin:

Welcome to another episode of the Green Adelaide Podcast. We are Metro SA's first environmental industry podcast, with your insider scoop on all things cool, green, and wild in metropolitan South Australia. This podcast is for those who want or have a career in SA's environmental industry. We feature the experts, including the leaders and ecologists, to the planners and marketers, to chat the people, project, and news of SA that you, our enviro listeners, must know about. I'm your host, Melissa Martin, and I'm the communications manager at Green Adelaide, who loves red-tailed black cockatoos. Before we jump in, remember, subscribe to our podcast for new episode alerts.

Welcome to the Green Adelaide podcast. For this episode, we'll be talking about the ins and outs of living with wildlife in metropolitan South Australia, and the good and bad things that can arise. We'll be chatting all about it with the principal ecologist at the Department for Environment of Water, Dr. Karl Hillyard. Welcome, Karl.

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Thank you for having me.

Melissa Martin:

So first off, like all our episodes, let's chat a little bit about your career and how you got to your role today. Can you tell us about your journey, and so how did you end up as a principal ecologist at the Department for Environment?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Sure. I suspect a bit like a number of people around here, it was a bit weaving and wending. I did an environmental science degree, Adelaide Uni. Really enjoyed that, did my honors, looking at how to count tammar wallabies on Kangaroo Island. So a place that I really enjoy and species I'm really interested in, and have come back, to some degree, full circle on. Now my professional career, so I did undergrad, did honors, first job out of uni was working then in intensive agriculture industries. Get a job out of uni, get what you can get.

That was really fascinating. Really different work, different in the ag sector from where I'd been. Learned a lot, but probably drifted away from that after about 18 months, just realized that wasn't quite my passion. Found something else to do, which was one of my passions, which was working in outdoor ed, tourism. So went back to TAFE of all things and did a good year there. Met some great people, did some great stuff, got some TAFE qualifications in tour guiding, in outdoor ed leading, and then went on to work in that industry for about 24 months. Tour guiding on catback, on KI again, working in outdoor shops, those sorts of things.

Melissa Martin:

What did you tour guide around?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

It was one of the companies focused on backpackers, so it was that really fun mix of meeting all sorts of interesting people from all over the world. Taking them, showing them an adventure on KI, seeing the nature, doing some adventure stuff, going for walks, going sandboarding, these sorts of things. It's such a great place we take for granted, and it always amazes me how many South Australians have never been to KI. It's right on our doorstep, but it's not always the easiest place or the cheapest place to get to. But just such a beautiful place and so many wonderful things there. So tool guide around KI. That was really good. That can be hard work, though.

Moved into working in the outdoor industry, selling outdoor gear and sort of stuff and then thought, oh look, I spent four and a half years doing a degree, I should probably be putting that to use. It was almost like a delayed gap year, gap couple of years, and started scratching around for higher degrees. Eventually found a PhD project, really interesting, really stimulating work, working on the management of carp on wetlands in South Australia, working split between Adelaide Uni, back at Adelaide Uni again, but then also working with SARDI Aquatic Sciences. Really, really good bunch of people across those two institutions. So spent the usual PhD, the commonish PhD journey of three plus years of studying intensely a few interesting topics, and that dovetailed really well into work effectively back in the government sector.

So my research was looking at carp screens, so screens which we put on wetlands to keep carp out, and trying to tailor them so that they would be having less impact on native species, which we want to be able to move. So the screens are there to keep the carp out because the carp damage the wetlands. But what I was trying to do as part of that work is minimize that harm on the native fish, which we want to be able to move in and out of wetlands. And that then spanned into working for one of the NRM boards, SAMDB NRM board, effectively, for 18 odd months, more of-

Melissa Martin:

So Murraylands?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Yeah, Murraylands region. So I was based out of Murray Bridge, worked with some great crew there working on wetlands, catching fish, catching frogs or surveying frogs, doing birds, really wonderful stuff. One of those jobs where you go, "Oh, they pay me to do this. It's great." And that then evolved into a role in the Department for Water. There was a large, primarily federally funded program, the River Run Recovery Project. So that was looking at wetland management and weir pool manipulation and large floodplain infrastructure projects, from... Where was that? Wellington, up to the border.

And so I applied my wetland management skills there and then did some work on the weir pools and flood plains, and about somewhere through that period, machinery of government changes occur as they do, and we wound up sort of into DEW or evolved into DEW. So after about six or seven years working on River Murray things, it's time to take next step in the career, and saw a job come up in wildlife management and thought back to the fun I'd had and the interesting stuff on KI, doing wildlife management thought, oh, I should have a go at that. And yeah, lo and behold, here I've been for five years.

Melissa Martin:

Have you gone from obviously more field work being tour guide, in the Murraylands, to I guess maybe more officey-type job in policy, wildlife policy? How have you gone with that change?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Yeah, look, it's a big change. Yeah, there's pros and cons to whatever sort of work you do. It's great being out in the field all the time, and at the same time there's lots of early starts and late finishes and lots of time spent driving around the place. And just with my family circumstances, with a young family, certainly into some office work was not a bad thing. I'm really fortunate in this current role, because it is a statewide based role, we get to go all sorts of places all over the countryside. So get to see a whole lot of diversity in the state, as opposed to focusing in one area. There's no doubt there's days which I look out the window here in our office, and fortunately do have a view of some sunny skies and go, I'd reckon I'd much be rather be out hauling a fish net or doing some such like that again. So we get bits of nature here in the office, but it's certainly a different office, as you'd be aware from being in our big wide world.

Melissa Martin:

Yeah. And so what drew you to the field? So what drew you to study at the start?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Yeah, studying in this field, I'd grown up spending a lot of time outdoors. Really fortunate that my family really liked going camping, doing those sorts of things. I often joke with my mom because my mom always used to love birdwatching, and I found it the most boring pursuit ever. And I reflect on that frequently now as a parent to young kids and go, oh, you watch the wheel turn full circle. So yeah, I was really lucky as a kid to grow up and get to go a whole lot of interesting places with family, just camping with the family and friends, going, traveling all over the countryside for sport.

I used to do a lot of volunteering as a kid, which takes you out to all sorts of national parks and weird and interesting places, with the scouts going out and doing all sorts of things. So really from a young age that embedded interest in nature, I guess. And you sit around high school and someone goes, "What are you going to do with your life?" And I don't know what I'm doing tomorrow, let alone for the rest of my life. But an environmental science degree seemed like a good option to me. And I'd say it's payed off pretty well.

Melissa Martin:

Yeah. Your mom's like, "Yeah, I made you bird watch."

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Yeah, look, for sure.

Melissa Martin:

I made this.

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Yeah, yeah. So I'm not sure how much she loves it when I'm going, "No, no, no. It's not that species. That's that species these days."

Melissa Martin:

And what do you wish you knew before you started your career?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Yeah, I think I wished I'd spent more time building networks as an undergraduate prior to graduating, or trying to find work in the industry, volunteering, whatever it is. So it can be the sort of place where it can be hard to find a way in, but the big message for people is persistence pays off. And being as flexible as you can to find what the right pathway into a career in the environment sphere, is really important. And thinking laterally because there's different ways to find your ways and to places like our agency, but you really need to be someone who's persistent and keen and that's what we like. We like to employ people who are really interested.

Melissa Martin:

How do you define success in your field? And I ask this because it can feel doom and gloom. How do you define success?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Working in wildlife management, many of the things that we work on, many of these topics, they're not readily solvable. Finding solutions, absolute solutions, if that could be done, it would've been done long ago is kind of what I... It's not that we're not trying, but things are inherently complex. So I think success is keeping moving forwards, keeping people supported. My role is around wildlife management and for much of that work, it's not about the animals, it's about the people. So it might not be necessarily addressing the animal side of that story, but you can have other successes with the human side.

Melissa Martin:

Yeah, that is a good answer.

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Yeah. Thank you.

Melissa Martin:

All right, so we'll jump into our rapid fire round.

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Fun.

Melissa Martin:

Which is 10 random questions I'm going to ask you, which take us out of the environment sector and just really lighten the mood and get to know you a little bit differently. So I'll just ask questions along the line of your favorite things or this or that, and just tell me the first things that comes to your mind. And I'll kick off. If you've had to describe yourself as an animal, which one would it be?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

I think people start looking like the animals that they work on. Yeah, I don't know Mel, that's a tough one. The rapid fire question. Animals are a really hard thing to answer, because of the professional considerations we face on them.

Melissa Martin:

You think too deeply into them.

Dr Karl Hillyard:

I do, sorry, I'm going to struggle with your rapid fire. So that's my non-answer to your, "what animal are you" question.

Melissa Martin:

I'm going to say carp.

Dr Karl Hillyard:

I mean, carp are successful creatures, aren't they. They've thrived for a reason. So yeah, I'm happy to be level with that.

Melissa Martin:

What's your star sign?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Star sign?

Melissa Martin:

Yeah.

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Aries.

Melissa Martin:

Aries. What's your favorite season?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

I do like autumn.

Melissa Martin:

Ask permission, or ask for forgiveness?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Context specific. Forgiveness is frequently the more expeditious route to getting an outcome. Not always the best outcome though.

Melissa Martin:

Call or text?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

I love calling people. I like to talk. And the time spent talking is often faster than the time spent typing.

Melissa Martin:

What was your worst subject in high school?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Probably maths.

Melissa Martin:

What's a nickname your family or friends call you?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Carlos.

Melissa Martin:

What makes a great leader?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Someone who can inspire.

Melissa Martin:

What is your favorite sport to watch?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

I don't mind watching the footy these days.

Melissa Martin:

AFL footy?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Yeah, yeah. Soccer as well.

Melissa Martin:

If you could live anywhere in the world, where would that be?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

I think I'd like to live somewhere with a lot of snow for a little while. Probably the one thing I regret we don't have more of here in South Australia.

Melissa Martin:

Cool. And that is our rapid fire round.

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Easy.

Melissa Martin:

So the next topic we're jumping into is about living with wildlife. And so, in South Australia we encourage living with wildlife approach, which is about positive attitudes to wildlife, being aware of the importance of them and their welfare. And we take an approach that promotes the humane, non-lethal methods to manage wildlife complex. So why do you think, Karl, that it's needed to promote this living with wildlife approach in SA?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

I think living with wildlife is an approach that you see across most Australian jurisdictions, and probably internationally. It's important, I think, because we as community value wildlife, native wildlife particularly. The construct that we work around is that they're valued things, that they're worthy of protection because they have an inherent value to ourselves and our society and in their own right. So taking that approach, we see them being reflected. It's a bit of a mirror image with what's then in legislation. All right, so society's perspectives to whatever degree, the consensus of society probably then gets mirrored in legislation. And to some degree what we then see as our living wildlife approaches reflects what the laws enable us to do to animals in South Australia.

Melissa Martin:

I guess maybe the approach starts to hit your life if you do have a conflict, and then it would maybe help people work through that in a different logical order than maybe a different framework.

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Yeah, look, I think it helps get beyond a simple solution which some people defer to, which is just "kill the animal." We can't not talk about wildlife manage without talking about killing animals. And it's not why we come to work. It's not where... Everyone here loves animals is my observation. But it's part of what we do as a regulator is to help people understand those circumstances where you can and can't, or how those sort of activities can occur, and the steps that we should be thinking about and doing our best to undertake before we get to that point of a wildlife management spectrum.

Melissa Martin:

Yeah. So what I have found personally interesting from being in the environment sector for around seven years now is the constant distinction between native and non-native. So whenever an animal was mentioned or a species is mentioned, it's classified as native and as non-native. And before I started in the environment industry, I didn't think about it. That wasn't a thing that entered my mind, but now I'll go out and I'll see some animal, I'll see a duck and I'll be like, that's not native. And it would just come to my mind straight away. And just want to discuss a little bit about, I guess this native and non-native distinction that's constantly made, and this label that's given to animals. And I guess the idea that isn't any bit of nature great? And isn't a weed better than nothing, or a blackbird better than no birds? Are non-native animals ever good for the environment?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

So one of my hats that I wear in this role is working around the biosecurity sphere, and the common, understandable, relatable question going, "Surely something's better than nothing?" And I think it's that understanding of that risk posed by whatever that species is. If somebody brought it to Australia, brought it recently to Australia particularly, thinking about how has our own nature evolved with that species, and how does that new non-native species actually impact on our landscape? And I think that comes back to that, we talk about living with wildlife 'cause we like and protect our nature. So some of those introduced species, unfortunately many of them, have an adverse impact on our nature, which we like.

So I think we live in society where we're quite urban. Most people's relationship or many people's relationship, maybe not most, but many comes with interacting with pets and then these sorts of things that we see in very urban constructs. And we've really moved away from the times when many people have lots of links back to working in rural agrarian landscapes. And I think just, it's fascinating how all animals are deserving of humane treatment. If it's sentient, we should be looking after it and taking care of it or making sure that when interact with it, it's done in a way which is humane.

That should be a given throughout. But we know that some of those species, many of those species which aren't from here, really impact on the things which were here before white people came. So are there circumstances where non-native species are not bad? Maybe, probably. We know there's some complex interactions out there in the wildlife sphere. We know that, there's some evidence that... We all understand that feral cats have a devastating impact, and have led to the extinction of far too many native species. And we know that things like foxes can have a moderating impact on cats. So there's some context-specific assessments. Are foxes specifically good for native species? Probably not. But are they a lesser evil, perhaps, than others? It becomes that sort of relativism question.

Melissa Martin:

I think the story that comes to my mind when I think about native species and non-native species working together is the story about bandicoots liking blackberry bushes, blackberry bush being non-native and a bandicoot being native. And I guess keeping them in certain areas, because they make safety in them. What's your take on those kind of situations, where I guess you're trying to kind of maintain non-native species, like that's a quite evasive one, to look after native species?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

I think that's akin to the fox and cat, and bandicoot dynamic if you want to throw it in there. So why are the blackberries good for bandicoots? Because the landscape's been modified. We introduced things that are really good predators like cats. So it seems a bit perverse to some degree to go, hey, a one non-native species is helping protect another one. And if that's what's working in our changed landscape, then that's something we need to be attentive to. So I'm not against those things by any stretch. I'm not absolutist, but it's getting into that, what's the detail?

Because the natural world can be complex, and so it's important for people to work beyond the superficial black and white, good and bad type of scenarios into going, well actually this might serve a purpose. But at the same time, as I said before, we need to be intent to going "Look, is this a net benefit, but what's the potential disbenefit now or into the future?" So yeah, I love that blackberry story, but at the same time it's a sad story because we've, to whatever degree, come to rely on one invasive species to protect a native species from a different invasive species.

We don't have a time machine. We can't easily, albeit many people are doing really good work to try and roll back the clock in it and increase those protections. But yeah, I think that's what is fascinating about working in this field, is that it's not straightforward. Things are complex and you need to scratch the surface a bit to get a really good understanding of how things actually work.

Melissa Martin:

And so the next question is about understanding wildlife behavior as being key to living happily with wildlife. Possums in your roof, flying fox poo on your laundry are probably some daily annoyances people have with wildlife. What's your advice to people when they are in such situations of what they can do?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

For many people living in Australia, they're subject to such interactions with wildlife, and that's that case of things aren't always... Always saying, we are dealing with forces of nature. If you live near the beach, you expect your car's going to rust. It's akin to that, I think with wildlife. Wildlife exists, helping people build an understanding of the importance of that species in the landscape, understand why it's doing whatever that thing it's doing is building tolerance and understanding. And at the same time, acknowledging some of these things can be really debilitating to people and have huge financial or psychological whatever impacts or safety impacts, that's all fair.

And at the same time go, that thing's just doing whatever it's doing because that's what it knows to do. And then in the landscape, it's not the animal themselves at the first step that we should be focused on. It's what is the impact and getting that understanding of that impact, because in addressing that impact, it's a big place and it's many and varied, but we'll start with a sort of perspective in going, "Let's focus on the impact rather than the animal, and work out how do we mitigate that impact.?

At what point does that involve the interaction back with the wildlife, as opposed to some other step that you put in place to go, oh, well we can deal with that in another way. So looking for those indirect options that don't necessarily mean we have to interact with the animals is always a good first point of call.

Melissa Martin:

To talk a little bit about whales. So I read an article the other day around beached whales and the human expectation to do something all the time, because it's such a big animal and it's quite, I guess it's a bit in your face when it happens and you feel like you need to do-

Dr Karl Hillyard:

It's horrible, isn't it?

Melissa Martin:

It is, it really is. But this particular article was talking about, maybe we shouldn't be helping them, and maybe we should let nature take its course a bit more. But I guess people feel this implication to help, because maybe we're doing something in the ocean that is beaching them. So do you think, with the growing impacts of climate change, and maybe these things happening more often, do you think more human intervention will be the future?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Look, I certainly think that there's probably an increasing societal expectation for more human intervention because of the things you mentioned, climate change and whatever, other changes we make to the landscape, and understand where that comes from. I think that also needs to be contextualized with, nature isn't always nice. It's not a nice place, it's a hard place. That's probably one of the other shaping things from where I found out where I was, was watching all those nature documentaries, watching Attenborough and working out which animal, which animal comes first, is what it's presented as, is that the one that's going to win or is that the one that's going to wind up someone else's dinner?

So I think it's the complexities of nature and human emotions and belief systems and values, to go, yeah, look, there will certainly be circumstances where people have to intervene to protect species and protect the conservation of species and all individual animals need to be treated humanely. But I think this is where we get into complex delineation between the welfare of individual animals, versus the conservation of species, which I think is a regular path that we have to tread as wildlife... People working the agency, such as we are, and go look, what's the best outcome for that individual animal? As opposed to, what's the best thing for that species, locally, regionally, whatever, to ensure we're not going to lose whatever that species is in long term. And I think that's where-

Melissa Martin:

Do you think, I guess the cultural... Because I feel like over my lifespan so far the care factor for animals has significantly increased. And I guess maybe lots of social factors have influenced that, like social media and people sharing different things and feeling, I guess, more empathy to animals than maybe in the past, or verbalizing it more than in the past. How does that, I guess, play in your everyday role? This increased emotional connection to animals, to the past,

Dr Karl Hillyard:

People's values, beliefs, knowledge, whatever their rule sets, are really important to know and understand. And working in wildlife management also means working with people. And that's, people have heard me say around this place going, "You can't turn around for tripping over another ecologist or scientist." But I think that's where there's great opportunities for people with psychology degrees, marketing, sociology, to come in and help working on those wildlife management issues, because people coming through an ecology science type field has some pretty good ideas around what we do about the animals. But the other part of that story is how we help the people side of those stories, whether that's education, whether that's trying to nudge those values and belief systems to find that balance between what's best for an animal versus what's perceived as being the best thing for an animal.

Melissa Martin:

Well now we'll move on to managing wildlife conflicts, which can be a bit of a tricky topic. So wildlife management is often thought about in terms of protecting and look after wildlife populations, and the habitat that they live in. But wildlife management also includes managing conflict between humans and wildlife. And that's particularly so in urban areas like metropolitan Adelaide. And so, we talked a little bit about it earlier with possums and flying foxes, but what do you find in your everyday job are some common wildlife human conflicts?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Yeah, look, certainly greater Adelaide area, we know that... What are our hot topics? It's things frequently like white cockatoos, particularly little corellas, the big flocks of little corellas we see through the warmer months or typically warmer months. We know there's sort of increasing-

Melissa Martin:

Them, gnawing on people's property?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Oh, little corellas, they're a bit like carp. They're really successful, adaptable species. They're one of those species got the potential to go far, because they will adapt readily. They're clever. The landscapes we've created for them with agricultural development, permanent water supplies creates perfect conditions for little corellas. And with that, with some wildlife interacting in urban spaces, they bring impact. So by having ready access to food and water and creating habitats, which give them great shelter from predators, they got plenty of spare time on their hands. They act like mischievous little kids.

And it's one of those things, busy hands are happy hands, and for little corellas, because they're not having to spend a whole lot of time and effort finding food and water, they've got plenty of spare time, which means they've got time to go and chew on things and express those innate behaviors they have of chewing, scratching, digging, whatever. Unfortunately for the humans, that means sometimes it's the things we've built and the things we love or created, that are at the wrong end of their beak or their claws. So yeah, chewing, I don't know, power cables, infrastructure like fittings. It's a long list. It's a long list.

And how do you deal with that? I spoke about, we need to think of wildlife like the force of nature that it is and go look, the animals are really adaptable. The ones which are doing well in our landscapes are generally the ones that are pretty adaptable. Certainly the ones which we have concerns for their conservation status are the ones which aren't, perhaps so adaptable because they're dependent on certain things, or we've created other problems for them. But the things which come across as [inaudible 00:29:20], like little corellas or kangaroos or grey-headed flying fox, whatever the case may be, the things that we like are the things that they like. So it's a bit of part and parcel, we're going, we're dealing with natural forces and it's hard to control them sometimes. And control is a tricky word. It comes back to that living with wildlife concept, is helping people understand why those animals are doing what they do, and the things we can do to try and dissuade them from doing the bits that we don't like them doing.

Melissa Martin:

And so it is a bit difficult to talk about, but the reality, like you mentioned before, is that there's going to be times where there is a need for non-lethal and lethal ways to control animals. And as you mentioned, control is a bit of a odd word when we want to live with wildlife. It could be due to aggression or serious injury or overpopulation is a reason that we maybe need to control a certain species. Can you talk us through the complexity of this topic, and what kind of measures are in place in South Australia to manage these wildlife conflicts very ethically?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Yeah, so let's start with, and it's not always the most enlivening thing, we'll start with some of the legal aspects. And so most native animals, at least birds, mammals, and reptiles, are protected by the National Parks and Wildlife Act. And what does that protection mean? It basically means that for those species that are protected, you can't take them, and take means things like capture, kill, restrain, injure, either to do that or attempted to do that. So unless you've got a permit you can't take, you can't harm those animals. So coming back to that, what society's framework? That those native animals are good and things to be protected.

And so the National Parks and Wildlife does that, but it also recognizes that native animals can create impacts, and where those impacts are causing threats to crop, stock, livestock, human safety, whatever, we can get to the point of allowing people to destroy them under permits. But because we apply that living with wildlife approach, first and foremost is that consideration of what can be done non-lethally to manage those impacts. Not the animals, we keep coming back to, we're managing the impacts. We're not trying to specifically destroy animals, control animals, harm animals, it's how to find ways to manage their impact. And sometimes that does mean that we are dealing with the animals, managing the animals themselves, but we're trying to get to a point of going, what are the non-lethal options? So we're not harming them first.

Melissa Martin:

I guess building on from that, so urban rewilding is a big focus of Green Adelaide, and it's about encouraging more nature in this city, which also brings up the issue of human wildlife conflicts and maybe making more of them, which might be a bit of a blocker for some people to welcome more nature into the city. So some people have expressed concern around their safety management and control. We keep coming back to control, because everyone feels you need to control wildlife. From your experience, how do you see a wilder metropolitan Adelaide work into the future?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Yeah, I think it's a wonderful concept and it's something I think that's worth encouraging. It's that net benefit of going, it's nice having nature around, and we hope that we can support people with that education understanding of going, look, this is what's going to come. Maybe not going, maybe that's not the right word, but this is what could occur with some of this rewilding, because to whatever degree there's this experimental element to it. And I think whatever reassurance, we can go look, there's systems, there's knowledge, there's tools that we can apply to make sure that we can live as positively as we can.

Melissa Martin:

I feel like with nature, I guess with big build projects, there's a start, finish and end, but with environmental project there is not as distinct and clear like that. There's a start, a journey, a continued journey. And maybe you could wrap it up in a nice story, but it's really not finished.

Dr Karl Hillyard:

No, I think that's right. I think we talk about case studies of wildlife management things and yeah, I think the journey's a great way to describe it, because there's not always neat and tidy ends to some of those stories. That doesn't mean that there can't be or there won't be, but it really is a process, and some things maybe just have really, really long middles to that story and that's fine. That's helping people understand that that's how some of our interactions with nature and wildlife work.

Melissa Martin:

If someone was to experience a wildlife problem around or in and around their home, what do you think is the first step that they should-

Dr Karl Hillyard:

It's trying to work out what actually is the animal that they're dealing with. Some people just simply don't know, "I've seen a bird." Okay, great, we've got a few hundred birds of species. What are we actually talking about? So it really depends who it is and how it is, but I think that starting point of going, it's whatever it is, it's a rainbow lorikeet, it's a little corella. Having those, working out that those things, "Okay, I know what I'm dealing with, I know what my context is." We do have plenty of really good interesting information out there on our website, the Department for Environment website, because these issues have been long... People's interactions with some of these pieces are longstanding. We do have good advice there for people to go, "Hey, if this is what's going on, here is the range of management options, things you can try." So there's lots of resources out there.

Melissa Martin:

Cool. And that brings us to an end. So before we wrap up though, for our listeners who are about to get into the sector, studying, or who are in the sector, what is one learning from your environmental career so far that you wish you knew when you started?

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Yeah, one thing we always talk about is people, for me and where I'm sitting at the moment is, we spend a lot of time writing stuff down. So being able to write well, don't underestimate it. Whilst we all want to be out there and in the wilds, if you're going to be working in government, you're going to have to be writing. So being able to write well was probably the one thing that we go, people who write well, it's a really good skill to have. Because you're telling a story about whatever it is, you need better communicate your message in a compelling way, educate, inform, sway, promote, whatever it is. Good writing, good communication skills are really important. So if you think that's an area that you need to develop, practice. Practice makes perfect.

Melissa Martin:

Yep, yep. Good one. Cool. Thanks for joining us today.

Dr Karl Hillyard:

Thanks Mel.

Melissa Martin:

Thank you. And that brings us to an end of this episode of the Green Adelaide podcast. Thank you to our special guest, Dr. Karl Hillyard, where he took us through managing the impacts, and the keyword is "impacts" of wildlife management in South Australia. This podcast is your insider scoop of all things cool, green and wild in metropolitan South Australia. I'm your host, Melissa Martin. And remember, subscribe to our podcast for the episode alerts, and I'll catch you for our next episode late next month. Bye.